Enneagram at Work

102. Can Fictional Characters Help You Use the Enneagram? feat. Kate Hallock, Author

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Is Batman a Type 1?

Is the Hulk a Type 2 or Type 9?

What type is Peter Pan?

And more importantly, why does it matter?

In this fun and light-hearted episode, we're delving into a unique approach to understanding Enneagram types. We'll be exploring how fictional movie characters can provide valuable insights into the nine Enneagram types, helping us deepen our understanding of ourselves and others.

You'll also get to hear from Nine Ways to Die: An Enneagram Murder Mystery, author Kate Hallock who shares her experience and insights with using fictional characters to better understand the Enneagram and ultimately the other people in your life.

Kate is a writer who loves taking non-fiction topics and turning them into engaging fiction. Her Debut novel, Nine Ways to Die: An Enneagram Murder Mystery, takes the concepts of the Enneagram and displays them in the fun puzzle of a murder mystery.

She's also the podcast host of the show, "Nine Ways To..." and identifies most with the Enneagram Nine.

Connect with Kate over on Instagram: @katehallockwrites

Get a copy of her book:
Amazon
Barnes and Noble

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Not sure what your Enneagram type is yet, but want to?

🎙️Listen to the episode walking you through how to find your type with 2 questions:
https://www.enneagrammba.com/blog/enneagramtest

💖 Use the power of the Enneagram in your romantic relationship inside The Compatible Couple™ experience with Coach Natalia
https://www.enneagrammba.com/compatiblecouple

✏️ Get an overview of all nine types inside the Understanding People at Work Cheat Sheet 
https://www.enneagrammba.com/cheatsheet

Have a request for a future episode? Drop a text here!

🏆 Begin the process of becoming a Dream Team Certified Workplace: https://www.enneagrammba.com/enneagram-certified-workplace


🗓️ Book an Enneagram Workshop for your team retreat at work:
https://www.enneagrammba.com/enneagram-team-workshops


✏️ Get an overview of all nine types inside the Understanding People at Work Cheat Sheet
https://www.enneagrammba.com/cheatsheet

Speaker 1:

All right, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MBA podcast. I'm fangirling a little bit. Today. I just mentioned this. I have Kate Hollick on the show. Kate is the author of a really fun new Enneagram book And I was telling her I just finished it on the plane and it is a murder mystery And I'm going to let you actually share about it. But it was so fun to read And whether you are an Enneagram enthusiast or you don't know anything about them, you're still going to love the storyline. It's called Nine Ways to Die. Kate, welcome to the show, Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Here it is.

Speaker 1:

What inspired this murder mystery? Enneagram book.

Speaker 2:

Well, like probably most of your listeners, i got obsessed with the Enneagram and I started talking to everybody I knew about it And they at some point started to glaze over and didn't want to talk about it anymore. And also during this time, i was trying to diagnose all the people in my life, about what type I thought they were, and sometimes I would know that I was right, or sometimes they wouldn't know their numbers. So you don't know if you're right or not, and sometimes you're pretty sure that you're right and they're wrong, but you can't tell them that. So I started thinking about writing a book where you would know at the end if you were right or not, as you're diagnosing these characters, and just as a way to kind of dig in deeper to the Enneagram.

Speaker 1:

I love that. Now I know you have mentioned you identify as an Enneagram type nine. How did you know that that was the type that resonated with you the most?

Speaker 2:

Well, i read through the road back to you was the book that I read and kind of got linked in with all things Enneagram And I kind of was making little pencil marks on each one because it would have a list of things that might resonate with you if you're this type. And I was making pencil marks And on the nine it was all but one, i think. I checked And then as I read through the chapter, it was like someone was in my brain and saying things that I had never really said, that I had just taken for granted were true, and I was just like, oh, this is me. Somebody's written my brain out on this page, like I just get this.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it feels so good, doesn't it? Yeah, what you had mentioned when we had initially started pleading for this episode. one of the things that we might have gotten or get into is, when nines are productive to pay attention. What does being productive look like for a nine and why should we pay attention?

Speaker 2:

Well, a nine is not going to go all in and be productive on something that they're not passionate about. They just don't have the energy for it. So when a nine is ready to roll and going on, something like, expect it to be stellar and above the bar because they're not going to waste their time doing something that they can't do well or that they're not going to be successful at And I think nines too, we get this reputation as being lazy, but I think we're really just very efficient with the energy that we do have. We don't waste time doing a lot of the less important parts of a project. I think we're very laser focused on what can I do to make this the best it can be with the least amount of effort. And that can look lazy to someone who might be a three, But really it's just a very efficient way of getting a project done.

Speaker 1:

Oh so good, okay, so I have a question right And I'm putting you on the spot a little bit and it's okay if you don't have an answer.

Speaker 1:

But with a nine it does sometimes get a little confusing for people because not everybody identifies with that sloth or kind of lazy energy. Sometimes, like you were saying, it's very much productive, like I'm busy, i'm always doing things. So what I have found is that in my personal experience people get confused sometimes. Am I a nine or am I a six? or am I a nine or am I a two tend to be the most common kind of pairings in the typing process. So I'm curious what insight would you offer someone who is maybe trying to navigate am I a six or a nine? And then I'm going to follow up with the other one.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's funny because my 15 year old daughter is on this exact path right now. She doesn't know if she's a six or a nine, And I'm pretty sure she's a nine. But nine's under stress they can go towards a six And I have experienced that when I'm in stress I start to spiral about the end of the world And if this happens then the world's going to end and life as we know it is over. When I start to get that way, I have to kind of like it feels like I'm not myself. When I start to do that because I'm not in my own number And I think that's where she's at is that she's a nine under stress And so she is taking on a lot of the qualities of a six.

Speaker 2:

Being in high school is stressful, So I think that there is, and also a six, I think in health will go to a nine, And so a healthy six might start to feel a lot like these things aren't going to bother me as much And I'm going to be able to kind of breathe easier and not obsess about all the things that could go wrong.

Speaker 2:

So I think there is kind of that and that line between those two can be kind of really confusing, But I think it all comes back to your core motivation. With the nine it's really about having peace And with the six it's really about finding safety. So you really have to decide which one's more important. Me and my daughter we've been joking lately about it and she'll be like well, give me a scenario where, like, peace and safety are like at odds. And so I'll be like if you're driving down the road and someone's being unsafe, do you tell them and risk being conflict in the relationship, or do you just like put up with it and feel unsafe? It's just funny, like that wouldn't happen. So we've been trying to figure it out.

Speaker 2:

We've been trying to figure out what's at the core, so we'll see. It takes time, i think, for people to feel who they really are, and I think reading the book would help, or digging into some resources helps you kind of identify.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it does come down to motive, you're absolutely right. And then sometimes people will say, well, both, or at work it's this way, or at home it's motivated this way. And what I find the most, the six and the nine motive. when you really give some examples like you're talking about, it can become, i think, more clear still tricky, but more clear. But sometimes the two and the nine, it's almost like I want to be connected and belong and not cause conflict and people please. And there's some similar energies, although very different. So what insight would you offer to somebody who's struggling between the two and the nine?

Speaker 2:

The two and the nine are tricky And I found that well. I think they're going to be the two most confused in the book, so I'll circle back to that in a second. But the two and the nine do look a lot like because they're both very others centered. So we're very aware of what other people need, and the nines are aware of this because we want to give them what they need so that we don't have any conflict with them, and the twos want to meet their needs so that they can be appreciated and be loved, because they feel that they'll receive love by doing things for others and by being needed. So I think again you've got to think about why not just why you're other centered, but why you do the things that you do for people. Because I'm other centered but I don't go out of my way for a lot of things Like. That sounds harsh, but I don't.

Speaker 2:

People are moving or something, unless they're very close to me and they have asked me specifically, as a true friend, to help them with something. I'm not going to offer like, oh, you're moving while my husband has a truck and we'd love to come by. I'm not going to offer that unless we're very close and you've asked me personally. But two will go out of their way to please someone. They'll see a need and they'll go right after it, which is such a lovely and great way to be, but they just have more of that energy, i think, than a nine does. We're more protective of our energy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what a great way to put that. This may be a little stereotypical And I may be way off, so call me out if so. But my mother identifies most as a type nine And I used to think I was like, oh, she's got to be a two. But then when she started digging in, she turns out she's a nine. And I started paying attention And the way that she gives gifts started making me realize like, oh yeah, she's an odd two, because she will. I'm like it's so obvious what I like and what I'm into And she'll kind of get something random and then just put it in a bag. We joke about her just throwing her gifts in a bag, whereas I feel like I have a friend who is a two And she meticulously wraps the present.

Speaker 2:

That's so funny.

Speaker 1:

And she's so hyper aware. I said something in passing two years ago And she brings this gift out of nowhere And I'm like, oh my god, it's so perfect because you paid attention to me, Yes.

Speaker 2:

They're very thoughtful. Yeah, they're very aware and thoughtful.

Speaker 1:

Really attentive.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

So I thought, oh, that's kind of funny. So I'm curious too. I don't always ask this question, but a lot of our listeners yes, this podcast is about professionals and understanding people at work. However, we're human beings and having a human experience, and some of us are having that human experience as parents. So I'm curious how has understanding your type, or just the uneagram in general, impacted the way that you parent?

Speaker 2:

Oh, i think that's a great question And I think, just like you want to be understand yourself so you can be your best at work, you need to also understand yourself so you can be your best at home. And I think understanding my nineness helped me to kind of understand some of the things that I do in parenting that I couldn't quite figure out why, for instance, my kids know this and take advantage of it. But if they're playing happily I will not interrupt that for a short time. I will not If they're playing happily and everybody's getting along. I'm not going to go up there and be like stop what you're doing, we're going to clean the floors or whatever. No, it's not going to happen because the peace and the calm of the household is already existing, so I'm not going to break that just to achieve clean floors or whatever. I'll just clean the floor.

Speaker 2:

And so my kids have figured this out. They don't know I'm a niner. They don't understand I mean, the oldest one does, but they don't necessarily understand that. They just know if they're playing happily I will leave them alone and not make them do the things they need to do. And so understanding that has helped me to kind of say, ok, well, let's find the space to make sure that we get the chores done too, so that I'm not doing everything just to make everybody happy. But there's lots of little things like that that you start to unpack, as you know your number.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. Is there, like what would you say? Just it can be about yourself, or just in general, like a parenting strength of someone who identifies with a type nine?

Speaker 2:

I think the temperature of the household and the chillness and also the ability to know what your kids need, Like do they need a sport right now Or are they passionate about this? Or why are we running around and doing these things? Like are they important to them? as a person, Because I look at what they need, But also keeping the calm in the household and just keeping everybody chill, And like if somebody's upset, let's figure out why and how to talk about that and get us all back on the same page so that we're not like in a stressful state hopefully ever.

Speaker 1:

I could see that. Yes, yes, yes. What about just a general again, your personal experience, or just a general example of, maybe, a parenting challenge that a type nine might have?

Speaker 2:

I think well, in addition to not making them do their chores, i think I can tend to overemphasize the wanting to be home and the wanting to just relax and not do a lot of things. And so I haven't signed them up for all the activities. And we don't do all the things after school And like, if the activity is nearby and it's not going to be a big effort then and they're interested in it, then we'll do it. But if they're not, like begging me to do it, i'm not going to. And sports are really good for kids, whether they've asked to be in them or not.

Speaker 2:

But my kids have not done a lot of sports And they have never asked to, they've never been really interested in it. I mean, they've done seasons of things but not anything. But they haven't been passionate about anything. So I don't know, i'm very child led in a way, because I'm other centered. So I let them kind of lead on some of those activity things. But I could push them a little bit more. I'm sure, like other types, are more intentional with what they do as far as activities.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i think that's really helpful. I think other nines will probably be nodding along with you as you say that, then I think that's really helpful, a helpful perspective for other types to understand. Maybe their partner or whoever else in their life is maybe operating with that. One of the things that comes up we just alluded to it earlier. We talked about it was the energy level Sometimes of a nine is very different than your threes, your eights go far, go fast, just do it, jump in To write a book. I think it requires a lot of that energy and a lot of self-motivation. I don't know. I'd be curious what you think it requires and how you were able to either use the gifts of the nine to complete it or what specific challenges you had to navigate through with the nine energy.

Speaker 2:

Well, i think it goes back a little bit to what we were talking about before, that if a nine is going to do something, they're going to do it well, if they're passionate enough to spend the time on it. I think that's what it was like. I got the idea for the book and I just had to write it. I just had to write it, so it came down to all my free time, and that's not even true. When my kids were in school, i would write. Then, when they came home, i'd do the chores and go to the grocery store, take them with me to the grocery store, instead of doing that when they would have been home. I just had to make it a very structured routine.

Speaker 2:

It was 12 to 1, i'm going to write the book. There's things that are not going to get done because of that, but that's what I'm going to do from 12 to 1. Once I'm done for the day, i'm done for the day. I'm not coming back to it at 8 o'clock at night when everybody goes to bed. That's not me. I'm going to relax and I'm going to do some things that fill me up. So that's the way I was able to get it done just little pieces at a time. What was the second part of that question?

Speaker 1:

Were there any challenges that you faced with some of the nine energy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, i mean there's always a challenge with the nine energy, because the nine energy likes to couch a lot and just relaxing. It can be a challenge When you hit a roadblock or something's not working, just like in life. When we face a conflict, we can shut down and numb out. I think when I would face a roadblock with something in the plots not working or I'm not sure how to make this go from here to there without a plot hole or how can I fix this problem, then it's tempting to walk away and say, okay, well, i'm just going to numb out for a day or two And then not pick it back up again.

Speaker 2:

So you have to just dig in and say, okay, we'll put a pin in that, we're going to come back to that, but I'm not going to lose the momentum of the writing. There's a podcast called Writing Exquises and they say this thing called I think it's called Butthock or Bithock, where it says butt in chair, hands on keyboard, and they're like, just commit to that, put your butt in the chair, put your hands on the keyboard, and then just what happens happens in the time that you have. And so I just was like I'm just going to do that from nine to one, and so that's how the book got written for a nine.

Speaker 1:

What great advice, and I know we can all run into that sometimes, so I think that's really great advice for all of us. You know, i'd be curious to hear your personal experience again, or what you have heard from other nines that you have encountered when it comes to being led and maybe motivated or inspired at work. What should a manager who is not a nine know about leading someone who is a nine?

Speaker 2:

You need to know that they are not going to make space for themselves. So if you're in a meeting and they have an idea, they're not going to make the space to make it about them and say their idea. So you have to make it about them If they're quiet, in every meeting that you've ever had, in the next meeting you say what's your opinion on this, and if they freeze like a deer in headlights, then give them an out and just say well, think about it, and if you have an idea, i'll come back to you later, whatever. And then do it every meeting so that they get to the point where they're brave enough to say, ok, because they have ideas, they have thoughts, they know what they're doing. It's just they can't make the space. It's hard to make it about them And it's hard to make the space.

Speaker 2:

And I think a lot of nines think that One of our core fears, or whatever, is that we don't matter, our presence doesn't matter and our voice doesn't matter. And so I for a long time thought that the things I was thinking were obvious to everyone And if I said them it'd be like Sunday school, where you're like Jesus, the answer is that's just the obvious answer. But I started to realize, as people would call me out or ask my opinion, that I had unique thoughts and that what I was saying was different than what everybody else was thinking. And so once I started to realize that my voice did matter, then I was able to make more space in those kinds of situations.

Speaker 1:

So good And that is. I hear that kind of feeling invisible or like you are saying. It's like doesn't everybody know this? Like why would I be the one to speak up and say it? Like I'll let someone else answer that or say that. The other question, before we get into, before we switch gears, is around in the spaces that I work at in a lot are these corporate companies, teams, departments, even startups, where there's a lot of three, eight, maybe seven leadership energy. What do you see And I always love to talk to people who are leaders outside of those types just to give some ideas and just validation for you can lead regardless of your type. What do you see as some of the strengths that a nine leader brings to a team or organization?

Speaker 2:

Well, absolutely The peacekeeping is number one, and not necessarily peacekeeping, but peacemaking, helping people to see all sides of a situation And not just go all in on one idea, but to be able to understand everybody's perspective. So that goes hand in hand with being other centered and being aware of what everybody in the team needs and what everybody in the team is good at doing and contributing And they can. I think a nine can get a lot out of the team because they understand what each person does and how they do it well, because we're very other centered.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i just had. I just did a post workshop report and one of the things I'll do is I'll give some just overall observations of the team map in general And this particular team was a startup, so just really, you know, scrappy and getting going and a lot of seven, three, some eights, and there and nobody had an Enneagram nine either as their dominant type or that showed up in their top two or three, and so that was one observation was there's nobody with this energy? What might the team be missing? Not that you need to hire a type nine, but without that perspective, what are you missing? And whether it's hiring that person or bringing in that perspective, like you're saying, the ability to see all sides, how could that benefit the team? Because that you know that inclusiveness, the ability to like help everyone, you know, consensus, kind of like, what does everybody think about? this really makes people feel validated and part of a team and like, hey, i want to, i want to give my all because I know that I'm cared about and people are asking me my thoughts and that type of thing. So so many benefits of a nine leader. So I'm glad you hit on some of those. I want to shift gears a little bit and get into this fun topic of you.

Speaker 1:

Know you wrote a book, a fiction book, and you had each of the nine types represented in characters throughout the book And you weren't calling out like, Oh she is a type three. But you know you made some decisions and actions And you kind of could see, okay, this is, this is that type. What can we learn Like somebody? let's let's talk about your book specifically First. What could somebody learn who maybe doesn't know their teams in eagram type? but by starting to see some of these characters represented in a book, like how to how to nine ways to die, what can we take from characters being represented by the types? How can we apply that to real life?

Speaker 2:

Well, i think, if you can start to notice certain types in fiction or, you know, even in movies and TV, if there's a certain type of person that shows up over and over and they're always annoying you, even in, like a TV show they don't necessarily annoy other people, but you feel like this is an annoying thing, that that I keep seeing, or certain kind of character that I just don't relate to, then there's something there that, like, you need to understand, because those kind of people exist in the world and we have to work with them and deal with them. And so I think it can be really helpful to kind of dig in and start to understand why people are acting the way they are, and then, once you can start to see that maybe they're not evil or wrong all the time, like there's just some different motivations, then you can start to understand them better and be a kinder, better team.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and even the. I won't have any spoiler alerts, but there was kind of a ruthless character in your book, one of them, and it's like, oh, when you kind of understand their type, then you can start to kind of put the pieces into like what might have happened in their past or how their past affected them, and then, like you said, it's like don't love this current behavior, but I can understand and have some empathy for it.

Speaker 2:

Right, right. Yes, if we can find empathy for every character, then we can find empathy for the people in our lives.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, did you by chance? this is like a random question, but I know that there are classes out there being taught and maybe you might even be teaching one. I don't know about how to use the Enneagram in character development, so I had a fellow Enneagram coach. She's actually a licensed therapist but she on her as a side business, i guess teaches authors how to leverage the Enneagram types to create believable characters. Oh, that's cool.

Speaker 2:

Have you done anything like that? I have not. I mean, I did write the book that way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you absolutely did. That's why.

Speaker 2:

I asked. But no, i haven't taken a class. But I think it's such an interesting idea because I think when I read a book that I have trouble relating to a lot of the characters. You start to realize, oh, everybody in this book is driven by the same thing. You know, like they're all because that's what the author was driven by. You know, like as a nine, i could write a book where everyone's just avoiding conflict all the time because that makes sense to me. But you know, an eight would read that book and be like what is up with all these people?

Speaker 1:

I don't get it.

Speaker 2:

So it's important to understand how other people think, and Enneagram is a great tool as far as something specific motivating your characters, apart from what you would do in that situation.

Speaker 1:

What a great point, Yes, like what a great benefit as an author to be able to have some like really practical, like a really practical tool or framework to look outside of yourself and like kind of check yourself, like How am I writing this? Is it all my perspective? We were talking a little bit before we hit record that one of the favorite things that my workshop members will just love is I'll go through the types and then just for fun, I'll throw in like an Avenger example And it's just so fun and people love it, even if you're not a huge Avenger fan because I think it helps, you know, put something, a picture of a visual to all of this information. Now I know you have some other character examples for us. I'm curious if you would be willing to go through some of those.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the book is still a couple from each number, maybe, yeah, so let's talk about our ones. And so ones want to do the right thing, and I think you know. If you think about superheroes, i think Batman is more. You'd think most superheroes are twos, but Batman is more about making the world a better place than helping people. He doesn't I don't think he's, you know, he's not helping people. He wants to make the world a perfect place and get rid of the bad guys. I also have Ned Stark from Game of Thrones. He's definitely, you know, he does the right thing. It doesn't no spoilers, but doesn't always work out for everybody. But Woody from Toy Story is a one, oh, yes, yeah. And I have Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird, so he's definitely a one. He's trying to do the right thing. Lawyer, trying to do the right thing.

Speaker 1:

Total one.

Speaker 2:

Oh, go ahead, Total one.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so what should we move on to? two Well, i want to get your opinion on something. So I also have a type one that sometimes I use as like an unhealthy example, as Thanos, because I always thought he was of the Avengers or in, you know, the Avengers movies. Are you familiar with him, bagley? I'm not, as a big adventure person. He is like the ultimate, like bad guy, and I always thought he was an eight and maybe that's not fair to our eights, but he has this really big, like commanding energy kind of ruthless, But his.

Speaker 1:

I've noticed that he talks like he wants to destroy the universe and like wipe out half of the population because it's too overcrowded And it needs to be done, And it's like there's a right way to do this. That's a one Right.

Speaker 2:

Yes, that's totally a one. He's like we're going to make it better but you all have to die. We were watching Godzilla. My daughter had it on in the car So I wasn't watching it but I was hearing it And it was the same thing. They were somebody and I don't know the story very well because, again, i was only hearing it but they were going to, like, wipe out the whole world so that, like they could have this utopia with the monsters or something. It was like, oh that's, yeah, that's a one misguided one.

Speaker 1:

Yes, misguided, yes.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

So again, just like an example of like the behavior might look like one way, but then when you really start to listen and pay attention it's like, oh they're. They're behaving badly because of this motive. Potentially.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yes, and any number can go bad, right, but okay, two, type two, what do you have? Type two So that's our helpers, right. So I have Sam Wise from I think it's Gamgee, i'm not sure how to say it Gamgee from Lord of the Rings. So he's like the helper, he helps get get Frodo to the volcano and whatever, but he's like his like side side guy. Okay, type two from Harry Potter The fairy godmother from Cinderella is a two. Snow White, i feel like, is a two. She comes along and helps the dwarves, even though she's kind of just on the run, but she cleans and cooks.

Speaker 1:

What a great example, the Avenger example that I will give. I'm still kind of playing with. It is like Aunt May, sometimes like for Spider-Man. Oh yes, i can see that. Yes, and then I was reading.

Speaker 2:

I actually asked oh, you know who is a two, I think, Superman. Is he an Avenger?

Speaker 1:

He is in the DC, that's well universe.

Speaker 2:

We're crossing over.

Speaker 1:

We're crossing over here, i think he's a two, but I love that because I haven't done anything with the DC world, so that's good. We got Batman and we got Superman, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I also, and you said the Hulk was an eye, didn't you? Well, in a previous podcast. We're not there yet.

Speaker 1:

Here. Well, i was just going to ask you this. So I have always thought, i've always used him as a Type 9 example And from what I hear, nines will say I'm calm, cool, collect and then potentially years of suppressing so that I don't cause conflict, i will erupt and kind of turn into the Hulk And it's very alarming and surprising to people.

Speaker 1:

But I asked chat GPT what he thought the Hulk was, or what they thought the Hulk was, and they said a Type 2, because Bruce Banner is like so caring for the group and really like attentive and wanting everybody to get along. And then he they said the highway to eight and it will come out when for the eight. So I don't know, i've been kind of playing with that.

Speaker 2:

I was thinking he might be a 9 with an 8-wing, or he could be a 2. But I think, well, it's the same thing. We were talking about how 2s and 9s can be mixed up, and so it really comes down to the Hulk's inner motivations, and we at that side can't always know for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I thought that was interesting. All right, what do you have for the Type 3?

Speaker 2:

Tiana is definitely a Type 3. You know, tiana the princess, oh, princess. And the frog Okay, she is a worker bee, she's trying to earn enough money to buy her restaurant And she is such a 3. And Han Solo is a 3. Okay, And I also wrote down every career driven woman from a Hallmark movie. They're all 3s, they're all 3s, over and over and over again.

Speaker 1:

That's so good. That's so good and so true. Do you have, just out of curiosity I'm putting you on the spot again but do you have a DC example of a Type 3? I don't have it.

Speaker 2:

I only could come up with Batman, spider-man and Superman, so I didn't have a 3. Although with Bruce Wayne, you could make an argument for Batman being a 3 too, because he's, you know, a career guy, but he's not. He kind of blows that off, doesn't he? Yeah, so now I don't have a good DC for 3. Yeah, but I don't think I know any more DC superheroes than this I don't.

Speaker 1:

the only reason why I know this is because I live in a house full of boys.

Speaker 2:

So I have all girls. That's why I know all the princess.

Speaker 1:

Right, yes, no, okay, i'm bringing this perspective. What I will say for the 3 is Thor, usually because he's so charming, very image conscious. I see that, yes, so he's usually my example. For that one, that's a great one, yeah for sure. Okay, what about our 4s? I'm curious what you have for them.

Speaker 2:

I have Rapunzel, very artistic, Okay. Luna Lovegood from Harry Potter Okay, She's a 4. And Kylo Ren from Star Wars Oh, I feel like he's very in touch with his feelings and kind of very like a feeler. Yeah, I felt like he comes his kind of whole story And that's an example of a kind like a 4. You don't really think of them going bad, but he kind of comes out of this all this trauma and just he's such a feeler and just doesn't know what to do with all this feeling So he just goes bad.

Speaker 1:

You know that reminds me of Loki Thor's brother or Doctor Brother from.

Speaker 2:

The.

Speaker 1:

Avengers. I have him as a 4 right now And he's kind of like gone off the deep end a little bit. Like you know, I'm defective, I'm never going to kind of measure up, And then that has like put him down like kind of like pseudo villain, sometimes a villain that makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I can definitely see that.

Speaker 1:

And in the business world. I don't know if I've talked about this on the podcast or not. I might have, but I will also just bring up Steve Jobs, and I know we're talking about characters, but he just is somebody who strikes me as a 4 represented in the business world, because sometimes 4s are like, oh, just artists and, yes, creative, but it's like, oh no, you can be a leader, you can be in the business world as a 4, and Steve Jobs comes to mind for me in that one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can see that.

Speaker 1:

Okay, what do you have for 5s?

Speaker 2:

5s. We have Sherlock Holmes, dumbledore, i have Owl from Winnie the Pooh. Oh yeah, i put down Yoda and also Hermione, but I think you can make an argument that Hermione is a 1, also from Harry Potter Anyway.

Speaker 1:

I like having these discussions because it makes you think like why do you? I think that they're this type, and then it's like, oh well, hearing somebody else is like, well, it could be a one because of this, And you're like, oh, I hadn't seen that in them.

Speaker 2:

Well, what's funny to me when I was trying to diagnose her specifically was because all the books and all the knowledge makes you think like five, obviously, but she also always wants to do the right thing. And what's funny to me is that my husband is a five but he's got a lot of one, you know, like he can sometimes come off as a one, and so I think there is something to that as far as like fives and ones. There is something there as far as, like you said, with the twos and the nines and the sixes and the nines. I think there's another kind of connector there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's see the five. The one that I will usually bring up for the Avengers is Dr Strange. Okay, it almost like. He's like kind of he has some arrogance with his competence and his expertise, especially back in his like surgeon days before he became Dr Strange. Yeah, but then I was also thinking of Jane Foster, who is Thor's girlfriend.

Speaker 2:

The mortal girlfriend.

Speaker 1:

And she is like this, really smart, intelligent scientist and thinking of inventing things. And then I thought of her in the latest Thor, like she becomes has superpowers and becomes Thor like, and I was like, oh, that's like that, five stepping into their eight growth arrow and getting powerful. So that's how I think about that one. I think that works totally Okay. We got what about type six?

Speaker 2:

I know this could span with all the different ways.

Speaker 1:

Six shows up.

Speaker 2:

Sixes are tricky. So I was having a hard time kind of nailing down sixes because they're more for me, they're harder to see from the outside, because I don't know why they just there's nothing kind of that stands out, i don't know. So I had Russell from up, because he's prepared. He's like the Boy Scout is like super prepared. That's very six. I had Piglet because he's always so worried about everything for Piglet. And then I had Mulan. I don't know why she struck me as a six, her fighting for her family and going to great lengths to protect them. I don't know. Those were my three. I could see it.

Speaker 1:

I could see that And sixes can be tricky because their outward behavior, I think, has the largest spanning variety with that fight, freeze or flight, presenting how they might handle fear. Those are good And I like your Mulan example because it's like well, not all sixes are just sitting around like worrying. You can also be powerful and use that fear to fuel you Yes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1:

I have a hard time with this one too in the Marvel universe, and I have I don't know if you know or if Listerns will know Gamora, the green woman from Gardens of the Galaxy. And then I also have the oh my gosh, the Black Widow, and they both had kind of traumatic childhoods and that, i think, caused a lot of worry. But I don't get the. I need to be strong and powerful like an eight. It's almost like self preserving and then also making sure their teams are safe and okay, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I don't know. I'd be curious if Listerns have another thought on that, but that's what I have right now.

Speaker 2:

Well, that makes sense, and you said they both had traumatic pasts And I think sometimes that can lead to like a severe desire for like safety. Yes, so that makes sense to me.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so I'm selfishly curious about what do you have for seven.

Speaker 2:

Sevens, i have Fred and George Weasley from Harry Potter, i have Peter Pan And I have Joy from Inside Out.

Speaker 1:

Oh, good one. I feel like Peter Pan could be the ultimate like average stereotypical seven. Yes, yes, he's your poster boy. I think Like I never want to grow up. Yes, the poster boy for the seven, oh, so good. I used to think Iron Man was the seven. I've moved him over to an eight and I'll talk about why in a minute, but I now have Scott Lang Ant-Man.

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, he's just so like, he's so happy, it's like everything's gonna be okay. I just watched the latest Ant-Man, like last week, and he was like everything's okay, everything's gonna be okay, everything's gonna be okay, and like they're in the worst possible situation ever. He's like it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay, yeah, and so. I see that, yeah, and just totally kind of avoidant of the reality of emotions, heart emotions or difficult situations. I think Star-Lord, what is his name?

Speaker 2:

Of Gardens of the Galaxy, Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

Chris Pratt is a seven, so it's probably a seven too. I think so too. Yeah, okay, what about eight characters?

Speaker 2:

Eights. I have Princess Leia Okay, she is an eight, i think she's a strong eight Rhett Butler and Elsa. Those are my three powerful eights. Oh, elsa, what a good one. Yeah, i love that you have some women on there, i know, because I think sometimes I tried to get a man and a woman for each one, because some of them, i think, can come off one way or the other. But that's of course not true.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, that's so true. I really like it when there's like a stereotypical or non-stereotypical type that's willing to share. I have a friend whose brother has. He was in the Marine Corps, heavy military background, like very man, what you would think of as like manly man, and he identifies as a type two Interesting, and he's just now starting to be open to the Enneagram. But I'm like, oh, i would love to talk to him because I don't. I think you don't ever get that image.

Speaker 2:

I don't think, when you think of a type two, well, i think too, like if you think about military, like that makes perfect sense because they are helping, like the world, yes, but I think people think of them like, oh well, they're probably an eight because they're strong and tough, you know. Yeah. So that is yeah, that's really beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i love that. So, fingers crossed, one day he might be open to being on the podcast. He'll do it. I think I had I mentioned I had Tony Stark, iron Man, just kind of that makes sense. We all kind of know him. So I have him for my eight, all right. And then, last but not least, what do?

Speaker 2:

you have for type nine characters. Harry Potter, christoph Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz and Cinderella.

Speaker 1:

What a great example.

Speaker 2:

They're all fun, easy going Yes.

Speaker 1:

Cinderella is a great one. I hadn't thought about that one, and I love that you're adding in like the Disney princesses, because, yeah, i don't always think about that. I had put the Hulk on here for my type. Nine as a Marvel character. I also had on here the Black Panther. Okay, he tends to be, even though he's like strong superhero, i think he also has a lot of the nine qualities of like very steady, able to see all sides, kind of thing.

Speaker 2:

So I don't know, i'm curious again what people think And I like to see like the strong, the strong nine, not just sitting back doing nothing.

Speaker 1:

Right, right Yeah. So if you're a listener, you'll have to let us know what you think.

Speaker 1:

Find us on Instagram and send us a message, and we're going to get to how to connect with Kate in just a moment. Or let us know if you have any other examples that we should be adding to our list. And I mean, I kind of shared and we talked about it, but is there anything else that you would add to? just this is really fun And I think this will be enjoyable for people to listen to and start to think of how they see. but how? anything else that we haven't covered about, how even just this conversation could be helpful in our understanding people at work.

Speaker 2:

No, i mean I think we touched on most of it as far as, like, just pay attention to the things that make you uncomfortable, or the characters you don't understand, and then, if you can start to dig in on why you don't understand them, you're going to have better relationships with those people in your real life.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely For anybody. I got three rapid fire questions. But before we do that, how can people get a hold of your book? And I was going to hold up the cover because it's also I love purple, Oh gosh, And it's not going to that. But where's your book? Where can we find?

Speaker 2:

your book. Well, on Amazon I mean most places where you can find books, amazon. Okay, here we go. It's called Nine Ways to Die. It's on Amazon Barnes. Noble, the Amazon man is coming to my door right now, so sorry about that.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's okay. Yeah either, Yeah, my, he went away, he went away.

Speaker 2:

He heard me talking about him. Anyway, you can get it on Amazon or Barnes.

Speaker 1:

Noble, okay, and yeah, i love it I download the. Kindle version And it's so fun and any a grand murder mystery for anybody else who's just wanting to learn about some of the other topics that you talk about and how else you help. Where can we find you? Where can we say, oh my gosh, i got this character for you, or you're in my head when you were talking about type nine. Where do you hang out?

Speaker 2:

Well, you can always find me at katahalikcom and then I'm on Instagram at katahalikrights, and those are my two main connection points. Okay, touch base and let me know what's going on.

Speaker 1:

Yes, i'm always saying like guess, it means the world to them to hear from you Something that you're taking away, something that you would add to the conversation. So don't be shy. We'll put Kate's contact information in the show notes, but Halak is spelled H-A-L-L-O-C-K, all right. So I would like to ask there's a lot of talk in just where we are right now, in this day and age, about success and living your best life and being your best self. I'm curious what is your version of success for your life Like? what does that look like for you?

Speaker 2:

I think success is really about doing something that you're passionate about and that you enjoy without paying the price in your relationships All right.

Speaker 1:

And then, obviously, we are recommending Nine Ways to Die as a book recommendation. You've mentioned The Road Back to You is one of your Enneagram books. Any other books that you would recommend Enneagram related or not that have helped you in your personal growth journey or professional journey?

Speaker 2:

The illustrated Enneagram has been a huge help to me in writing the book because it's got a lot of. I have it here. It's illustrated, so it's just like you can. If you're having trouble with six or somebody that you suspect to be a six, you can turn to the six page and be like this is what's driving them or this is what. It's just like a real quick reference point, and for me writing a book it was like a huge help to be able to like oh yeah, why would a seven do this? or how would a nine get out of this? Well, i know how nine would, but a three or whatever different number?

Speaker 1:

Okay, I have not heard of that one, but I'm absolutely adding that to my list because I'm a visual person and that might be a great recommendation.

Speaker 2:

And it's beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, really pretty Love that. And then is there anything else that we've covered a lot the type nine and just the different characters. Is there anything else that you would add, either about a type nine or about how to use the Enneagram, that we haven't covered? that would make this episode feel complete.

Speaker 2:

I think I would just tell everyone to do the work on yourself and then have empathy for others just by digging into the other types. but understand yourself first, and then that can help you to be more empathetic as you realize that you have weaknesses too, that other people are willing to work with you.

Speaker 1:

So What great insight and a great way to end that. So thank you, Kate, for all you shared And thank you We will absolutely be seeing you over on Instagram, hopefully tagging you in our book photos of you. Yeah, i've done that And so definitely, definitely get the book, definitely tag her and let her know what you're taking away from it. Thanks so much. Thanks, Kate.